There was a McCain/Obama kind of joint appearance on the week-end in a religious forum at Pastor Rick Warren's church. I will be upfront that I had no interest in watching it. I have seen Warren's book, the purpose filled life or something like that but have not read it either.
I have mentioned before that I do not particularly like what religion has done in recent years as people like Pat Robertson have taken it into the political arena. I guess Warren is a different sort of pastor and perhaps it's why Obama agreed to appear before a group that was going to be unsympathetic to many core Democratic values.
It wasn't about Warren though why I didn't watch it. Although I enjoy discussing spiritual issues one on one with people, sometimes even here, I do not enjoy listening to any politician talking about their spiritual belief because I don't trust it nor do I think righteous talk equates to righteous action.
So given that, the media and pundits apparently agree that McCain won that 'debate'. Obama put too much thought into his answers. McCain used succinct, well-packaged answers, said what that group wanted to hear ( I will follow bin Laden into the gates of Hell-- but he wouldn't have gone to Pakistan as it might offend a kind-of-for-today ally). McCain doesn't care if he tells the truth on any of it (might not even remember it) as in the debate he mentioned what a waste of money studying bear DNA is even though he voted for it-- his line got much applause which is all he wanted from it.
So, Pastor Warren asked, when did they each believe life actually begins. Obama said knowing that is above his pay-grade. Basically saying he doesn't know because it's a question about spiritual mystery. Not McCain. Life begins at the moment of conception hence apparently he will favor overturning Roe v Wade as well as installing criminal penalties on anyone having an abortion or doing one. I mean if life is of equal value from the moment of conception, what else can you say regarding the necessary government action?
There is some controversy over whether McCain possibly was told the questions ahead of time because, instead of being in a 'secure' location, McCain was actually in a motorcade with his staff, who were capable of listening in on the live debate with their Blackberries-- if they so chose. Actually, would they have even had to tell McCain why they were able to prep him for what was likely to be asked? He doesn't seem technologically too savvy.
The reason Obama supporters wonder if McCain was prepped was because of his tightly canned answers, but that's no proof. McCain always gives those. Both candidates knew pretty well what would be asked. McCain though did add something else of interest. He has spoken about it before evidently but now it is taking on some new questions for exactly what it means.
Was this a pretty amazing coincidence or did McCain, through the years, add onto time as a POW: [Solzenhitzen story shows up in McCain's personal testimony]. To add to the complexity of this story, even Solzhenhitzen may not have experienced what was in that story about the Christmas cross. It may have been one of those Christian fabrications intended to inspire believers: [McCain, Salter and Solzhenitsen] [and yet more from Salter]. Yet another exploration of the timeline for when McCain began mentioning this cross story: [Did McCain steal his cross?] (The spelling of Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn changes everywhere I see it written; so that's why the diversity here. I do know how to say it, not sure how to spell it.)
I guess if someone is most worried about their taxes (amazing how many fans of the Iraq war fall under that category) and wants 4 more years of GW Bush, they won't care about this kind of thing. Is it okay that over the years McCain has embroidered facts (if this is one, it would be the least of them) just so long as it helps him win?
The cross event was not in any of his early recitals of POW events apparently first appearing in 1999. Why lie about such a minor thing when he already had a powerful testimony. Except evangelicals hadn't thought it was enough and so did he give them more? Or by then had he forgotten it was not his own experience? He was a huge fan of Solzhenitsyn, and sometimes such people lose track of the line between themselves and their hero.
In 1987, a charge of plagiarism cost Joe Biden a presidential shot when it was revealed he'd given a speech where he used some phrases from someone else without crediting them. Never mind that Biden had credited the original speaker in all other speeches using the same terms, back then once was enough to end his run.
Do you think the mainstream media will explore this story about McCain, find out the truth of it, bring it up at all, or have they been intimidated by charges of unfairness into dropping it like a hot potato. Today do the majority of Americans care as long as it's their guy and they are told they will not have to pay more taxes? Do the majority expect something for nothing?
Conjure up those wizards because we are going to need them.
19 comments:
And the beat goes on and on and on and it's always the same. I'm not sure that McCain has the ability to descern the truth and it's just talk, talk, talk. I didn't watch it because I really didn't want to lose my dinner and from what I've read about it, I would have.
I am afraid that the media will be completely complicit in getting McCain elected. If Obama had appropriated someone else's story, or even if there was a mere hint that it might have been lifted, it would be blared at us like an unbearable truth.
This election season is killing me already.
I watched the Saddleback Church event, and it was exactly what I expected.
This was not about Obama wowing the crowd. He was in hostile territory. He survived, that's a win. He gave honest, thoughtful answers. He was trying to reach the small percentage of those in the audience that are thinking people, those who are beginning to question the past 8 years devoted to the hard right of the Republican party. If he chisels away 5 to 10 percent of the evangelicals it will be a big win for Obama. We'll never see headlines about it but I'm guessing he will be successful in doing that.
As expected, McCain came out as the fiesty fighter, and regurgitated all the right answers. His answers now allow the radical right of his base to come out of the corner they'd painted themselves into and vote for McCain. No thinking please, just spit those answers out in black and white. Never mind most questions in life are not black and white.
I strongly oppose events such as the one at Saddleback Church. It crosses my line in the sand of Seperation of Church and State. Now, will they be required to do the same thing in front of every religious group in America. Someone was asleep at the wheel on this one.
I did watch the McCain/Obama appearance with Rick Warren. In my opinion Obama made an especially strong appearance. He was completely grounded in his being and able to think and express himself clearly. After the questioning, I felt I knew him better, even if I am not in complete agreement with his beliefs I am confident that he is committed to the constitution and will act in the interest of my rights and our democracy. McCain on the other hand used methods of deception. He would shoot back any canned response even if it departed considerably from the question. He used humor to distract us from the content. And he kept distracting my thinking with the emotional introductive phrase, "My friends..." I believe both candidates did not have an idea of what the questions would be but were given a list of the topics to be covered. Obama probably went over in his mind the basics of his beliefs. He had confidence in his abilities to meet anything that would be asked. And McCain probably brushed up on his list of ideas that he knew would ring with the Evangelicals so he could plug in and shoot them quickly. He was nervous about looking slower than Obama. He relied heavily on telling his old war story. His answers showed he was less intelligence and was slower than Obama. He had difficulty elaborating on his canned messages. I feel McCain masked himself from public view.
I didn't see the debate either so all I know about it is what I've read online and the clips being shown on television. Unlike most of you, I cringed when I heard some of Obama's answers because I immediately could hear what the right wingers would do with them.
I also have grown weary of the commingling of religion and politics. I'm very uneasy with it and agree with the framers that no religious test should be necessary for holding public office. That being said, can anyone imagine an atheist as POTUS? Apparently even a Mormon would have difficulty getting elected, regardless of the amount of $$ he spent campaigning.
My sincere desire is that the country has learned its lessons from the last eight years and will not succumb to Rovian election tactics.
But as Robin said a weak or compliant media could be democracy's downfall. Let's hope the Internet is picking up the slack and the kids under 30 get out and vote!
I think that McCain came across better in this instance. Obama a C;McCain a C+ but neither of these men is staesman material. AS to the separation of church and state, I didn't hear either candidate complain about the venue.
" Although I enjoy discussing spiritual issues one on one with people, sometimes even here, I do not enjoy listening to any politician talking about their spiritual belief because I don't trust it nor do I think righteous talk equates to righteous action."
We've sure seen this in spades the last eight years.
What happened to the idea that one's religious beliefs or lack thereof are a personal matter that have no bearing in the public sphere? It's appalling that both candidates just about had to accept this invitation. But what do I know? I'm just a secular humanist.
Rain,
I've learned to visit your blog from our common very special friend: Suzann.
I'm not very into US domistic politics. What I know is that no Fortune 500 companies would like to have a President or CEO in their companies leadership. So why USA, want a person that age as a president?
Nothing to do with politics? A bit:
US is allready behind when talking about taking new IT Tech in use. Using Cellphones is - "Flinstones" and "Wild West".
ok ok. enought about--
I do with interst read your posts. I should only wish I could have known your language better, ie. to read and comment faster. As a Norwegian, close to your charming age, it takes time.
However, I want more people to read and learn form your blog:
I have nominated you for an Award. I'm not the blogger that do that very often, but at this occasion, you were among the choosen.
http://toraamusic.blogspot.com
Thank you for that award, TorAa. You might notice I don't add any widgets alongside my blog because I try to keep it quick to load for dial ups and I have a lot of photos sometimes; but it means a lot when someone like you says they do like what I say. I know the stuff right now will not be as good for those in other countries but I will be writing about politics a lot until the election because I feel it is so important. I do try to intersperse some things that are general to all of us because it's more fun for me to write and because I know a lot of readers here come from elsewhere. It just matters so much to me that we not have McCain as our next president and have to do what I can here to inform people who can vote on this. But I appreciate those who stick with me and either come from elsewhere or have less interest in politics than I do.
Also I have added to my blogroll and your blog went onto it TorAa. As you discovered mine through Suzann, I discovered yours the same way and have been enjoying it enough that I wanted to make it possible for others to find it.
I also appreciate those of you who saw the debate and put your opinions about it here. I think that is good. Comments are often the best part of my blog :)
A number of years ago I supported an organization that promoted the seperation of church and state. Then I went to the National Cathedral in Washington DC, Israel and to Tibet and came to conclusion we are fooling ourselves to think we can seperate church and state. What is needed is a clear commitement to fairness.
I didn't watch it either although I saw parts of it later. I saw the part where they were asked what they most regretted about their lives. Obama said the teenage years when he experimented with drugs and alcohol.
McCain said the failure of his first marriage. He didn't say it was because he was having an affair with Cindy after his wife was disabled following an auto accident and walked with a limp. She had waited five and a half years for him while he was a POW.
I'd also like to say that many people no longer have a land line and so pollsters have no cell numbers to call for their information. I think this fact skews the results in this election. We won't know the results until after the November elections.
Israel was founded as a religious state. Tibet is very connected to its religion but the United States was founded by those who were mostly deists and saw the danger of religion in control. We have changed a lot from the time that people really didn't know a lot about the religion of our leaders to today where a person who doesn't claim a religion, and it better be Christianity, cannot have a chance. I think countries in Europe are less oriented to this thinking. The fact that a person is a strongly religious person doesn't make them a good person by the standards of the world anyway ie bin Laden. I would like to see religion out of it as most who use it don't have any spiritual values at all. Not to say all but a lot.
I am not concerned about Obama trying to make the United States a religious state. In fact it is good to hear his thinking on how he processes issues significant to the Evangelicals. For example how he talks to the religious on the issue of abortion was commendable. He shows an ability to connect people rather than polarize. He says that abortion is an important issue that he has considered carefully. He says he is not for abortion and wants to reduce the number of abortions. There is a moral obligation to provide support if you try to promote life. He wants to help mothers to want to keep their babies because they know they will get health care and support. At the same time he does not want to put his religious values on others and therefore he must support women's right to choice. To me he is courageously working already to unify the country.
I don't fear that either but what I do fear is that most Americans are voting on an idea that religious values are what McCain is espousing and right now, the latest poll shows Obama down by 5 points. It shows that negative advertising, the ugly kinds of things McCain says with his -- my friends and a smile-- it works with this country. What you said about abortion is not what a certain group wants to hear. They want to hear that it's always wrong and they want it illegal. Now what will they do with those who have one? That they don't answer and it's what people had to answer back so many years when the right to choose became a reality. The truth was they did not want to treat women who had an abortion as though they had committed a murder which means they didn't believe it was. I am a bit depressed today seeing the latest polls and knowing that if Obama runs a higher level campaign, he will lose. He has to get down in the mud also and then we all lose. Either way the American people are getting what they deserve by rewarding the kind of tactics that McCain has been using. I expected this after 8 years of Bush but I won't accept it and we, who believe that McCain is the worst choice, will have to work hard to do what we can to change it. A lot of it is about taxes and that is another thing to make someone depressed-- that people would be so selfish and ignorant. Reading the poll results this morning didn't make me very happy obviously. Hope the McCain lovers realize what they are doing before it's too late and they end up with 4 more years of Bush and worse. It will be worse.
Obama's 5 % drop in the polls does not worry me for two reasons. All the citizens for Obama will be more motivated than ever. Secondly, the seeds that Obama has planted by speaking to Evangelicals take time to mature. We still have some time.
I want to add more about Obama's thinking. He said he really agonized over the idea of when life begins and he listened to ideas of faiths who thought life begins with conception and to others who think life begins at birth. In his own mind he honestly stated that he doesn't know when life begins. But his idea of when life begins doesn't matter as a statesman. This is of the mystical realm of religion and can not be argued. So as a statesman of a democracy he must respect all opinions equally. He set himself up as an example to all. Being honest will be understood but maybe not right away. he will not run a mud slinging campaign.
I agree, parapluie and what he said about abortion makes sense to me and a lot like me. The problem is will it be enough come November? We do have to work harder and put ourselves out there. If this country goes farther down a path of ignorance, it scares me where that will end up. I have to think supporters of McCain are not paying attention to where he will head if he got in. But supposing they are paying attention and that is what they want? I read a good article this morning and will probably post it elsewhere also What Obama must do to win and the main point was that he has to point up the differences between himself and McCain. I think he has started doing that. It will seem negative but it has to be done as this guy said if it's just a referendum on Obama, he will lose but if it's a referendum on ideas, that's where he can win. And if he wins, it will be better for the country.
As I said above, this blog (and I imagine many others) will go heavily political for the next months as it did in 2006 when I thought it was so important to write about the issues that faced America. I think we have to consider the character of both these potential leaders and then their proposed policies. I hope Americans will do that. I hope they will understand this is a time to dig deep and work, not feel depressed. It's a time to get out there and put some sweat into it. Obama cannot do it alone. He never claimed he could.
We bloggers have to do our bit to combat the lies and distortions put out by the McCain camp and by the compliant media.
I am not happy with the latest polls, but remember, Kerry was ahead in the polls at this point and look who won? I think the polls will be more meaningful after the conventions.
I wrote a post today on the Bush presidency because we have to constantly remind the populace of why we need a regime change.
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