Old Broad at the Beach

Every now and then I get an education on words and often with something I thought I clearly understood but find out other people clearly understood also only differently.

Growing up as I did in the 40s and 50s, I remember a lot of wonderful old movies where the word broad was used to refer to grown women pretty much of any age beyond youth. It was a slang term, but I had never understood it to be insulting. I suppose how it was used could turn it into an insult but that's so of most words, isn't it?

In the films, women even referred to themselves as broads. I don't think though I heard it in my home. I guess it was never the really classy or aristocratic ladies in the films but more earthy women, the kind who could stand shoulder to shoulder, and sometimes toe to toe, with their men, get down and dirty when required, and mostly were tough.

Although I hadn't called myself a broad, if someone had asked, I'd have said yes, I am. I didn't see it negative and maybe even flattering. I was aware however that others might it as lower class. Well so what! I come from working class, earthy roots.

When I got the idea of putting up a blog with a lot of photos of me from the beach, the title seemed it should incorporate the words-- old broad. I mean it's not like I am a chick or a bathing beauty on the beach but I do see myself as this strong earthy woman. A Woman on the Beach sounded too arty. Nope, it had to be old broad at the beach.

That is when I found out that not all saw the word as I had. My old dictionary simply defines broad (when it's a noun) as slang term for woman. But a man I know said it's a woman who dresses provocatively and has had several husbands. Say what! When I looked for more definitions of the word, sure enough some online did say exactly what the man had said.

I still saw it differently; so went looking for quotes referring to women as broads. Sometimes it's the context that changes the meaning of words. Through my search I found one blog with old broad as part of the title, learned the broad jump got changed to the long jump because of the derogatory way some saw the word broad, and read an an article where the writer talked of the old broads he admired and loved to interview-- Elizabeth Taylor being one of them.

Elizabeth Tayler: Dress provocatively-- check. Several husbands-- check. Although there is more to her than that and it's also the earthy side to Taylor, her deep ability to love, her ability to be one of the boys, her toughness, her passionate side that leads me to not see broad as derogatory when referring to her.

Am I a broad? Dress provocatively-- sometimes. Several husbands-- not yet.

When I asked Farm Boss what he thought of using this as a title, he suddenly got a yen for the movie Mamma Mia-- not because he remembered it referring to the leading women as old broads but because they were.

The following quotes are a few that I found:

"A lot of her is me. I've had this broad under my belt for five years. I own her - and nobody can tell me that I don't own her. I love every single dimension and component of her being. Her nobility, her flawed character, her laughter, her love of the absurd, her love of the unknown, her love of science... I've loved her great heart, her formidable spirit, her guts. She has a much better mind than mine, and a gifted imagination as well, but she's a little prickly, and certainly not without ego. She has this profound sense of humanity: she can talk to anybody and they listen." Kate Mulgrew

"I'm a tough old broad from Brooklyn. I intend to go on acting until I'm ninety and they won't need to paste my face with make-up." Barbara Stanwyck

"I'm too tall to be a girl, I never had enough dresses to be a lady, I wouldn't call myself a woman. I'd say I'm somewhere between a chick and a broad." Julia Roberts

"She was a great broad, in all the meaning of the word." (following the death of Barbara Stanwyck in 1990) Charlton Heston

"I'd have liked to have gone to bed with Jean Harlow. She was a beautiful broad. The fellow who married her was impotent and he killed himself. I would have done the same thing." Groucho Marx

Yes, old broad was the right title!

Art as a Calling

My main memories of Parapluie, the painter Diane Widler Wenzel, which go back over 40 years, always involve her thinking, discussing, or working on a new painting. Art for her is a calling.

This is not to say she does not have other interests, cannot discuss many topics with intelligence, but at the center of her being is, and has been for as long as I have known her, her art.

It is always fun to go on a vacation with her as part of it will be seeing what she paints. You can see those works by following this link: Umbrella Painting Journal to the paintings she posted from our recent trip. I can look at the same things but will never see what she does.

Honest, I didn't go out of my way to constantly photograph her with brush or camera in hand. It just worked out to be that way.

Art can be a passionate pursuit. For some, it is a calling that lasts a lifetime. Everything they observe is in context of a possible painting, sculpture, photograph, or some words.

I admire callings in others even though I myself haven't really had one (other than being a mother). Perhaps that is why I admire it in those who do.

On the trip, I had also taken my paints, small canvases, and brushes, but they never got out of their sack. Painting is not as relaxing for me as it is for her. I have painted on trips; but this one, possibly because of all we had been going through the last month, well I just wanted to experience the moments as fully as possible.

Experiencing, what is there, is true for Parapluie also, but she often does it with a brush in hand-- the Zen of painting.

Despite a lot of the complications in going, this was one of my more relaxing trips. I lay that partly to the place and partly to the company. Perhaps also I am finally learning-- sometimes-- how to just be.

Well... I did take a lot of photos some of which appeared here, will appear here or even might someday end up paintings eventually-- maybe...

What is the difference?

Terrorism is a tactic using violence and fear to gain political aims.

After Obama was inaugurated, Homeland Security issued a warning about possible homegrown terrorist attacks. They were swamped with resentment and accusations from the right. How dare anyone think right wing groups in the United States would grow and encourage such violent acts!

Well we just saw our second violent result of the nasty and vindictive accusations that have been coming regularly from the right through some of their commentators, blogs and emails.

Dr. Tiller was a Kansas gynecologist, obstetrician, who was murdered while serving in his church because he ran one of the few clinics that legally performed late-term abortions. Many people don't like abortions that are performed in the third trimester of a woman's pregnancy, some consider that, or really any abortion, to be murder.

Can we hold responsible people like Bill O'Reilly for the murder of Dr. Tiller because he claimed Tiller was no better than a Nazi? He quickly said no, it's not his fault and he would never encourage someone to murder someone else-- even if they deserved it. What had he been hoping his words would inspire?

What responsibility do groups have regarding their membership? When they helped the accused murderer track Dr. Tiller, were they tacitly encouraging him to do what he eventually did? What responsibility do outspoken commentators have for what happened Sunday? How about for the shootings earlier by a killer afraid his guns would be taken away?

Do those who use incendiary words (from either side) have accountability? There is a way to be responsible in what you say and still have a firm opinion that something is wrong. I actually heard that from Sarah Palin as she condemned the murder, didn't add a single 'but', while strongly maintaining a strict anti-abortion stance.

I strongly support the right of choice in the early part of a woman's pregnancy but would not vote to keep abortions in the last part of a pregnancy legal except when it's the life of the mother and even then a cesarean, to me, should be first choice; but did those who find it so wrong bother to read why women came to Dr. Tiller, who those women were, what their stories were? If you do, you see that some at least were in desperate straits, some with babies that could not survive long even if born. They didn't come to their legal choice lightly. Judge not lest ye be judged is not applicable for christianists?

During the Bush years there were no killings or shootings at abortion clinics, but there had been during the Clinton years. The type of vitriol that the right spews out, when it doesn't get its way, has consequences. If I walked up to someone and encouraged them to rob a bank or kill someone, would it be legal? Remember the blind Muslim cleric who encouraged and abetted the first World Trade Center bombings. He'll be in prison the rest of his life.

Randall Terry, who is among the most violence stirring leaders of such groups, did encourage what happened on Sunday. He believes in domestic terrorism and is using the tactics regularly. When he says that Tiller reaped what he sowed, Terry is sowing something himself-- homegrown terrorism.

Terry had better never speak out against foreign terrorists (maybe he secretly admires them) because the acts and goals are identical. They also believe their purposes are noble and dictated by god. They also believe violent acts are their only recourse to gain their goals.

Some would say that Dr. Tiller was doing wrong so it's different, but terrorism isn't just about killing those who are doing wrong (terrorists would say all in a country are responsible for what their government has done). Terrorists kill one person to frighten others. Terrorism is not about just killing a guilty person or even an innocent one. Its goal is what its name says-- inspiring terror for a political aim.

It often works. Many humans are easily intimidated. Who would like to have their home picketed (as happens to doctors who perform abortions) by those who hate them and yell threats? The tactics are using terror to alter behavior to win through intimidation when they cannot win through the courts or ballot box.

The man who killed Dr. Tiller had been part of a militant militia group, the Freemen. He had been arrested with bombs and done time in prison. He was a clear threat to anyone with whom he didn't agree, and yet he was a part of an anti-abortion group who didn't mind using him for their goals, some of whom probably see him as a hero today.

In some states there are very few places women can get even early abortions because of the fear in the clinics of being targeted by the hate mongers who picket and scream ugly accusations at the women seeking abortions and at those providing them. Have you seen how radical some of these people become? They themselves are clearly on the edge of violence. Who is stirring that up and benefiting from it?

The irony is this is often being done in the name of Christ, the Prince of Peace. It is clearly not about love and it's not about caring about the babies who might have been born. If it was, these same picketers would support medical care for all children, would always vote for school levies, would support programs to help children born in disadvantaged situations.

For righties who are either keeping silent about the murder of Dr. Tiller or think he got what he deserved, just shut up about extremists coming here to kill us. Terrorism is terrorism. There is no difference!

The Eloquent Eye

This week-end while trying to solve the mystery of the calf that disappeared (no, we have not figured it out), I watched two programs that really stirred my imagination in different and yet similar ways.


The first came from Netflix, Alfred Stieglitz: The Eloquent Eye. Stieglitz, born in 1864, was a photographer, gallery owner, promoter of the arts, complex man, lover of Georgia O'Keeffe (and a few other women although the film skipped over that), and one of the first to see photography as part of what some call the fine arts.


The film originally was on PBS, American Masters series. It explored Stieglitz's beginnings, his drive, his contradictions, and the artists with whom he was contemporary and with whom he both supported, befriended, and sometimes ended the relationship.


I was sitting back on the sofa from where I generally watch television when I realized I had to get closer to the screen. I never do that, but I had to see more details of those photographs. I always admire the work of photographers but particularly back when Stieglitz was learning to make the media into what it became and when it took so much more skill to get a quality photograph.


Stieglitz said that only the photograph can capture the moment. That doesn't mean a painting cannot evoke the same feelings but the painter on location is working with a series of moments and in a studio using memories and drawings. The photograph is the one thing that instantly stops a moment in time and tries to capture it-- not that anything really can. We have a memory of what we experienced and it travels with us but do we cloud that memory with other ones, with what we brought with us?


After returning from the beach, Parapluie and I discussed the way we both were there, often photographing the same things even though not at the same time, but did we see the same things? Do any of us see what another does even when we look at a photograph or painting?


That knowledge always frustrates me when I post photos here because computers change proportions and colors from one to another. I don't even see them the same from my laptop to this computer. I cannot possibly know what anybody else will see.


A photo cannot bring back the smell of the sea, the feel of the wind against skin, the texture of the sand under feet or hands, the roughness of the rocks, the squishiness of the sponges, the coldness of the water in the tidal pools. It can trigger a memory of those things. Even for someone who was not beside me when I snapped these photos, it will remind them of their own similar time at the ocean or even what they imagine it would be like if they have never visited a beach.


I don't think this quote was in the film but I particularly like it from Alfred Stiegtlitz: In photography there is a reality so subtle that it becomes more real than reality.


These photos are the first from the trip last week to the Oregon Coast. These are the little vignettes, the tiny things that particularly draw me to tidal pools. I love how the pools and rocks change with each high and low tide, the movement of the starfish, the colors with how the light strikes them. Of all the things I enjoy at the coast, tidal pools have to be high on the list.


The ocean is huge. The feelings it inspires are of the infinite, but for me the tiniest little sea creatures are equally inspiring. It is all about life, death, existence, survival, innovation, and creation. The cove from which these photos came is a very healthy ecosystem and its energy was particularly high with the lowest tides of the year exposing places humans only rarely see.

So is he a traitor too?

"What I do support is what has been termed the responsible closure of Gitmo. Gitmo has caused us problems, there's no question about it. I oversee a region in which the existence of Gitmo has been used by the enemy against us. We have not been without missteps or mistakes in our activity since 9/11 and again Gitmo is a lingering reminder for the use of some in that regard...

"I don't think we should be afraid of our values we're fighting for, what we stand for. And so indeed we need to embrace them and we need to operationalize them in how we carry out what it is we're doing on the battlefield and everywhere else...

"So one has to have some faith, I think, in the legal system. One has to have a degree of confidence that individuals that have conducted such extremist activity would indeed be found guilty in our courts of law. When we have taken steps that have violated the Geneva Conventions, we rightly have been criticized, so as we move forward I think it's important to again live our values, to live the agreements that we have made in the international justice arena and to practice those," - General David Petraeus

One thing that has irked me all along about the right wing is how they have listened to what someone like Dick Cheney says and called it patriotism without really looking at what it was. The war in Iraq had the same thing happen that happened in Vietnam. Suits made decisions based on political aims. They never cared about the results on the troops. And yet right wing followers still think those guys are the patriots.

Recently we learned more about the shoddy work that KBR did which led to electrocution deaths: [Pittsburg Tribune]. You do know who owns or rather owned KBR... who headed, until he became Vice, a company that made a fortune and incidentally since he retained stock so did he-- [Asia Times]. [The latest in KBR's Long Reign of Terror] Yes, Dick Cheney's Halliburton.

Soooo patriotic... if patriotism is about making money!

Celebrity matches

Kay at Kay's Thinking Cap has posed the question: who would play you in a movie of your life? It was fun to read people's ideas about that for themselves as well as Kay's thoughts. Kay had two posts on this topic, the last one using a site that takes your own photo and with computer analysis, structurally declares who you most resemble in the celebrity world-- male or female.

All it requires is a facial photo, ideally one looking straight ahead and not smiling broadly to allow the facial structure to be visible. Remember this is not about age but bones. I have done it before and different photos never or rarely put in the list the actress whom I am told I most resemble-- Meryl Streep, but then in the two pictures I used, I don't look like her to me either.



Then I thought, I wonder how much of this is make-up. As I put on more make-up, I did get some different faces but some of the same also. I am guessing they compare distance between eyes, width of mouth, length of nose, cheekbones and maybe forehead height. Some of these faces 'look' nothing like me that much I know, but a few do.


Doing this provided a nice break from figuring out what happened to that calf. We have walked all over our place including the wooded sections and there is no body, but we might have an answer by something that happened Saturday morning.

A coyote came down very close to the barns trying to get into where we keep the sheep at night, but ran when it saw Farm Boss. He did get off a shot but thinks he missed as it kept running.

It's hard for me to imagine a coyote could have completely carried off that carcass, but they have killed calves other places. In the case of ours, if it didn't stick with the herd, if it's mother didn't protect it, it might be the explanation. Basically though I have to let it go and accept something happened for which I may never have an answer.

Coming in Threes

Between sorting photos and everything else going on, writing for a new blog wasn't coming to me. The trip to Seal Rock was wonderful and a delightful three days with our friends. When you can still enjoy being with people after over 40 years, that's a good friendship. I took a ton of pictures as did Farm Boss and many will find their way to the blog. Words for them though didn't seem to be coming.

When we got home there were several things with which to deal. I had not mentioned that my cat, Persia, was living her last days. She was a very old cat and we knew it wouldn't be long. If she had not died, we'd have had to face putting her down. She had quit eating. She used to love to lie next to me, to come wherever I was, but in the last two weeks that had changed and she was more solitary-- perhaps caught up in the dying process. I would watch her breathe to see if she was still alive.

Before I left Monday, I held her on my chest for an hour or so and knew it likely would be the last time. Getting home, when she didn't come, we knew we had to find a body and eventually we did. She had just gone to sleep, gracefully and gently. We buried her out by the stone bench where she had loved to sleep on sunny days.

I cried as we all do when a beloved pet has gone on. Her aging process was a reminder to me of what I will face if illness doesn't take me first. I watched her wither, her weight drop, her hearing go, and I hated facing her loss. It's the price we pay for ever having the pets to love. The other alternative would be we die first and leave them. That's not a good thought either.

Then there was the calf. We didn't find it. We have yet to find its body and obviously it would be a body by now. The person looking after the cattle had seen the calf on Tuesday with its mother, or so he had said, but by Thursday morning it was gone. There are two possibilities. The most likely one to me is that it got into the creek and drowned. We have searched the banks but haven't yet waded the creek. We'll do that on the week-end.

If the creek didn't get it, then something took it off the place. That could be a theft or the thing I'd least want to think-- a cougar got it. We know they live in this area but we have never had one predate the livestock. If that is what happened, the problem will not be finished.

It was after that when I thought about that old saying about how things come in threes. I thought it's silly to even think of it, but I wondered.

Perhaps the third came Friday when we saw the emergency vehicles head to the neighbors' home up the road. We found out soon that their 4-year old grandson had taken off with their dog, and there was no idea where he went or what happened. By nightfall, trained emergency teams were on the hill and they had a tracking dog who had picked up his scent. Aren't such groups wonderful!

When they finally found him, it was two miles away and because the homes in that area had been alerted to keep an eye out. They heard their dogs barking and found the dog first and then the small boy. He was okay and as of yet I don't know why he ended up where he was.

If the first two stories had sad endings, this one had as good a one as possible given the upset that goes with a child disappearing that way.
Anyway above is the photo of Parapluie, Fisherman, Farm Boss and me that we took with self timer when they arrived at the beach house Monday afternoon. The first photo is the view from the beach house. There will be a lot more photos to come but it's hard to get my mind around organizing them.

Wednesday night at the beach, I had realized that I was dreading coming home. I had put my return out of my mind until then. It helped me enjoy the trip and truthfully nothing going wrong here could I have fixed.That is how life goes sometimes.

It only matters when a woman says it?

In my blog on Cheney, I ended up commenting on Obama's choice for a Supreme Court Justice to replace David Souter. I am pleased with it but will be interested in learning more about her opinions on some important issues that will be before the court.

Recent appointments like Alito and Roberts, despite them assuring us they were not extreme righties, have proven to be no real surprise to the right or the left. They did what Bush hoped. We have four very conservative judges with one conservative who can be a surprise. Roberts, Alito, Scalia, and Thomas have not surprised yet. Kennedy, you never know for sure.

Sotomayor's intellect, her ideas may be healthy for the court. Possibly when they are debating issues, she may put out some thoughts the conservative, neo-con, federalist judges have not considered. She is young, vigorous, has opinions and Scalia might enjoy having her there.

Souter surprised the first President Bush and maybe Obama will be surprised by Sonia Sotomayor. There have been some questions liberals have had about her opinion on abortion rights. She voted with the pro-life side in the two cases where there is a record. Obama has said he did not ask her opinion on abortion because he was looking for other qualities as of primary importance.

The right has viciously attacked her with Newt Gingrich leading the charge in public and probably Rush Limbaugh on his radio program. They would have attacked any liberal pick, but they especially didn't want this one. Rush Limbaugh expressed his fear of her in 1997.

Along with Obama, I like her intellect and background. How can one not admire people who pull themselves up from backgrounds where it's rare?. I do think never having married or had children, being raised in a fatherless home does give her some areas she has no experience on which to draw. Souter had never married either though. He ended up a far more independent thinker than the first Bush had anticipated and Sotomayor might do the same-- to both sides. From what I have read she is very much oriented to the law but law has to be interpreted based on human beings.

As I learn more about her, I may write more but for now I am pleased with the choice. The following article is a good take on the hypocrisy of the right which is nothing new. How apropos that one of the most hypocritical, Newt Gingrich, is aiming for another presidential run. He should do well as hypocrisy has been a byword for the right wing-- think Rush Limbaugh as another prime example. It governs their lives and decisions. Talk one way. Live another.

Anyway in regards their complaints about what Sotomayor has said in various interviews, this is well worth reading:

It's okay when male judges say it?

Will he just go away? Apparently not..

It's hard not to be irritated at not only Dick Cheney but also the part of the media and American public who follow along with whatever he says, at least in the media's case, because it suits their need for excitement and fear. The one good thing I can say for Cheney is he doesn't appear to be encouraging revolution. Imagine what it means to reach that point where that is praise for a Republican from a leftie.

Cheney's goals appear to be several-fold. He obviously wants to rile up the American people. He is clearly not willing to accept lack of power. He is telling us much about the power he did have during the Bush/Cheney administration. He may be worried about criminal prosecutions in the future He is also evidently trying to market a memoir and this kind of media blitz might raise its price. You know one thing about him, from what he did after his first time in power, there's never enough money.

Here are a couple of articles that feel about like I do. The first is the wish that Cheney would be ignored as any other nutty person is ignored. Fat chance but good try: Jane Smiley

The McClatchy Report is about the success that Cheney claimed he had with his policies, the actual facts, and points out where he lied.

Are Americans really this gullible? Some certainly are. I am not really so upset with Cheney. By now we know who he is. But what about those who lap up what he says as if it was gospel? Do they check facts? Do they care? It appears not. Are they as afraid of getting on a freeway as they are of another terrorist attack? I am not saying there is nothing to worry about with terrorism but there are many things in life to fear. Hiding under a bed doesn't protect us. Being frightened leads to mistakes that often makes the results of fear worse than the possible thing we feared. Cheney has one tool to use and he's out there marketing it again.

For part of his time in office, Cheney did a number on Bush. We can pretty well tell what Bush ended up feeling about it by how he transformed his policies on torture, on Gitmo to one ending up much more like what Obama is continuing. The final clue is that Bush issued no pardons before he left office.

Cheney is a manipulator. He has his best success with Rush Limbaugh types. He apparently relishes the excitement of war but didn't want to fight one himself. He is now seeking to create a groundswell of opinion to force Obama to do what he wants. He is no different than he was when he was Vice President.

There is one way to get him to go away. Quit listening to him but that isn't happening and the last I heard his popularity was up to 37%. That does not surprise me given the divide in this country. I just wish that 37% would look at the facts he is claiming, test them against what is out there for information, and then recognize Cheney for what he is, a selfish, bitter man, who has done all the damage he should be permitted to do. Ignore him. If they don't, he'll likely be on their GOP ticket in 2012. Doesn't that just inspire a great feeling!

If he just keeps that same 37%, the ones who never questioned Bush/Cheney during the 8 years they had power, it will be fine; but if we have another terrorist attack, something that nobody can guarantee won't happen, then I don't know what the great middle will do. Logic is no part of the answer.

Along the farm creek

There has never been a time I have not appreciated living along a creek in all its moods, its many shades of color and seasons. When things are not going well for any number of assorted reasons, here is a place I find comfort and it never fails me.


It's not just being able to walk down to the creek, but the sound of the water, hearing the creatures that make their home along its banks. Someone released a peacock out here several years ago, and at night I often hear its plaintive cry, sometimes wondering if it's part of a movie, but no, it's from my backyard.

Not to say creek living is without cost. It floods. There are erosion issues. Fences never stay tight, but it's always worth it. If the day comes I must leave here, and nothing lasts forever, I will always miss it but will take my memories with me for as long as I live. If I should die while I am still living here, I want my ashes sprinkled into this water.

A break

Despite it being a most inconvenient time for taking a break, it was scheduled with reservations for a house and a much anticipated vacation with our friends, Parapluie and Fisherman; so Monday through Thursday, I will be gone from the farm.

The situation with the calf is iffy, but she is finally following her mother out of the barn. Now is the mother feeding her adequately? We can hope. At this point, whatever happens happens. You cannot raise livestock for as many years as we have and not know that sometimes you lose these battles. At this point, we have done all we can.

So we will go, enjoy the beach and time with long-term friends, and hope that it will do okay while we are gone. It's hard to leave, but it would do no good for us to stay either. Farm Boss gave the calf treatment for scours (not unusual in newborn calves under stress). I am hoping for the best.

Since I am not likely to be online while at the beach (house does not have internet), comment moderation will slow down posting of comments but I feel I have to leave it there. Sometimes trolls coming through post some pretty ugly things when I write something political (and while I am gone I have one political blog pre-published). While I like alternative views, I don't want nasty, insulting or crude ones. Mostly I have been lucky that the majority of those who comment here, agree or disagree, have stuck to the issues and explained why they believe what they do. Those are the kind of comments I like to read and always will authorize. It is good for us to hear the other side of areas we may have made up our minds but not considered everything.

If I get to a cyber cafe, I'll check in to authorize comments but otherwise, the 28th, I'll be back and post them then. Please do comment if you are so moved as they always add to the blogging process-- well generally do...

Also, because I know some artists read this blog, check out this link: [Can Artists Save the World?]

Parapluie has been talking about this exact same thing for the last year-- the application of her art to political and cultural problems. The writer of the article asks for such artists to send her their stories with the hoped for result a movement for change leading to beauty and thoughtfulness to counteract so much of the ugliness that often gets more attention than it should.

To go along with that theme of beauty--

Although we have had a lot of farm problems, there was still time to get out into some nature areas for a little hiking. These are all photos from earlier in May on a nature trail in the Oregon Coast Range.
They show a bit of what it is like in a deep Pacific Northwest woods.
This year spring has seemed a long time coming. Ahead lies my favorite season. As always, it is worth the wait.

The insects have had a long wait also. Do they mind as much as we do?