A friend gave me this link, and I thought it's something we all need to keep in mind. This little slide show is history. It is facts. Facts are the only effective tool against the swift boating of our political process. Please don't stop part way through, because you already know much of it, because the punchline is key.
Some wonder why parts of the world have no respect for us and often even hate us. I've heard it claimed it's our wealth. I don't think it's that simple. We have so often been unwilling to be responsible regarding our own history nor have we owned up to our mistakes. It's our hubris.
25 comments:
That was quite an enlightening walk down memory lane, rain. Thank you for posting it. We have had our hands in their history for a very long time. Damn oil.
Wow, that was really something Rain. It kind of froze me as I went through it. Thanks so much for sharing this with us.
That was interesting. And I dont think it was oil why we initially got involved. It was to fight the spread of communism. The same reason we backed Manuel Noriega in Panama and Ferninand Marcos in the Philipines. They were both scum, but they were anti-communist scum and we bought and paid for them and when we were done with them we got rid of them. Marcos got the best deal, he fled to Hawaii and died there. Noriega fought and got sent to prison. Sadam had money from oil so he could afford a bigger fight and so he took much of his country with him. We prefered the Baathists, Sunni Muslims because they were not radical religous freaks like took power in Iran. Which we had propped up as a regional policeman since after Vietnam we learned that we cannot let US soldiers die to help other countries so we were propping up the Shah to handle that for us in that region. Then the radical Muslims overthrew the Shah and his US interests so we needed a new friend in the region and that was Sadam until his antics got him into trouble and we had enough with him. This same thing has happended many times in many countries in Africa over the years, but nobody really cares about what happens there to do anything about it.
As a side note I like the website you got the info from, especially the parts about how Rudy Gilliani should be in jail and that some of the 9/11 hijackers are still alive.
Not sure I put a lot of stock in most of their stories.
I am not happy to say this, Ingineer, but we clearly can't communicate on this. You think like a right winger whether you are one or not by your own definition. I am glad to have you voice your opinion here as you obviously speak for a good 30% of Americans, who justify anything they do through the Cold War mentality, but I can't begin to see the logic in anything you said. And I am sure you don't see mine. I think it was about oil with Saddam and nothing to do with communism. A lot of things are supposedly justified by those who lie through their teeth, or create a boogie man to distract others. Some will always believe they meant well. I'm not one of the 'some'
btw on those religious fanatics we want to protect ourselves against and the good guys who we are supporting-- are you aware bin Laden is a Sunni? Just checking...
I'm avoiding political discussions these days, but I did enjoy reading the back and forth comments in both your posts. I was not familiar with the term of swift boating. As for the movie, it was chilling. I thought the last scene would be Hussein's botched hanging which I personally think was orchestrated by the Bush administration.
I am not sure where the disconnect is. I know people hate Americans all over the world. We have a long history of breaking promises when the political wind changes in this country. I was not defending the actions of the past, I was just stating history. I did not know that Osama was Sunni but he is from Saudi Arabia and they are mostly Sunni. And as for whether they are religious freaks or not I guess I need to be more explicit. The Sunnis typically are not as big of religious freaks as the Shia. I would much rather protect US interets from everyone over in that part of the world, but as I said it is unpopular with the left in this country to send our troops overseas so the US has a history of trying to pick the lessor of two evils to strengthen our security and economic position globally. And those needs often change with time. I am not sure how describing being anti-communist during the Cold War is thinking like a right winger, we had a few democrat presidents during that time, Truman, Kennedy, Johnson. They did their part to fight the spread of communism as much as any republican president did. It looks like Sadam was put in power because we was anti communist but oil was a concern also, but the oil in the region had already been divided up between the US and USSR by some treaty negotiated in Turkey in the 1950s.
What would the Bush Administration have to gain by botching the hanging of Sadam? The US actually tried to get it delayed a while. It was botched by Shiites who were treated like dirt by the Sunni minority for years but now have most of the power. So now they get to treat someone else like dirt. It is human nature. Once a group gets power that has been treated poorly by others they abuse that power instead of remembering what it was like to not have power. For example white South Africans, Jews, Irish in Chicago the list goes on.
As I said, I'm not going to try to go farther with voicing my opinion on this. It'd take a book and blogs aren't books.
I do find this rather interesting though. The charges have been made, and so far not denied, that Bush administration has been funding Sunnis in Lebanon to try and shore them up against Hezbollah. So like do they think that the money stays there? None could find its way back to Iraq to shore up the Sunni movement there? Or worse that none goes to Al Qaeda, who are militant Sunnis?
Once money goes out that way, much of it in cash, you have no control over who gets it. Sunnis in Iraq are the main ones killing our soldiers. There have been billions that disappeared in Iraq which most assumed was due to graft but who knows for sure where it went.
Remember the movie, Independence Day? You didn't think they really paid $35,000 for a hammer did you!
This kind of help-this-guy-hoping- they-get-that-guy is where we got into all this. Clearly, we learned nothing and as long as we blame others for everything we do, we never will-- on a personal or government level.
Just read your comment, Bernie, and you well might be right. That is even more frightening...
I enjoy reading your political pieces, but don't often involve myself in this type discussion. As you said, 'it would take books', and then I don't think that anyone changes their opinion in the end. But interesting hearing different thoughts.
I do not not want to be considered a 'nut-case' or conspiracy fan, BUT one must consider that there has been some "malice of fore-thought" that is trying to guide what happens. Have you ever considered how the wording of political candidates change as they get "real" briefings from the powers- that-be? The job of the president is too look good, bluff well and not screw-up the stock market or the oil supply for that is the energy of growth. If you have considered playing "Civilization" or online "War-world" etc, you will see that there are programmed relationships to how societies interact. The games mimic realities that most of us ignore. Check out the links attached. The Rothschild family and friends are behind what is happening for good and bad. Do not be alarmed at the Illuminati comments just read it, and follow the money. Baron Rothschild did actually say the quote about controlling the flow of money vs the control of laws.
http://www.silverbearcafe.com/private/rothschild.html
http://www.silverbearcafe.com
I follow several investment news letters and have been in high level corporate meetings to present some item and heard the discussion. The message on the street is not what goes on at the oval table!
Yes it seems that the US is the worlds policeman and not unlike the real police, people dont want to get pulled over and given a ticket, but when someone is breaking into your house who do you call, The Police. Other nations bitch about us sticking our noses into others affairs but when they need help who do they look to? The good ole USA to bail em out.
We tried the kill em all forgeign policy and we have tried the set up some one else as a policman policy. It is a world economy and I dont think becoming an isolationist society is a possiblitly for the US so Rain in a thousand words or less, what do you think should be the main focus of our foreign policy? I have heard lots of things you don't think are working but I haven't heard any ideas of what you think might help.
That's a good question on what we should be doing and might be a good blog topic sometime just to see what others think. Off the top of my head, I think:
We have to have a president and congress who are wise people, not just into their own selfish interests and can look at the big picture in terms of our relationship to others. Diplomacy is key. We are not able to force the world to do what we think is best even if the Americans were so inclined-- which until the Neocons got in power, we never were so inclined.
I believe the US has to have protected borders as well as shipping. That to me is critical to foreign policy but then a reasonable work policy; so those who come here come openly and don't have to fear being abused or misused. Our nation has misused people before to get cheap labor (blacks and Chinese come quickly to mind) and that has bad karma attached. :) Treat people right and don't cheat them if you want anything to work for yourself
Given the terrorism problem we are facing, we have to have a very strong military, where the men and women are treated fairly for their benefits and what we ask of them. Probably not going to be a draft again as that has a lot of drawbacks, but strong military that can react quickly to attacks on us or our friends is critical.
If it had been me, I'd have stayed with Afghanistan and tried to get the people there stronger, making it that example for the Middle East that Bush claimed he thought Iraq could be. We had a real chance with Afghanistan given the brutality of their years under the Taliban. I think they wanted change. We had a right to attack them given they were harboring those who openly attacked us. It might still have not gone well there in the future given the history of those nations with waiting out anybody who occupies them.
We cannot be an occupying nation. It's not in the heart of our people. Part of what has been so upsetting about Iraq is we are occupying it and this country has never wanted to do that. With Germany, we fought the war and had to occupy for awhile but our goal was to get them back into a nation that was what it had been before Hitler. The problem with Iraq is what would that be? The ones who attacked Iraq had no idea and still don't. Some vague concept of them being a democratic nation but that's not been their nature in the past; so how do you make someone do what is not in their nature to do? I don't think this country has ever wanted to do that in the past and most of us still don't want to.
The problem with the Arab militants is that doesn't appear to be going away soon; so it has to be faced for protecting our people but then trying to do right for when we do have to go in militarily. Military is to break things and kill people; if you want peace keeping, that has to be a separately trained group.
I would like us to do something about Darfur and Africa. That is a horror and as bad as Rwanda was, Right now, we appear helpless to change anything there. It's the Muslim world there that is apparently attacking those villagers and if you read what is going on, it's horrible. A religious war of sorts. Some of that can be dealt with through diplomacy. I heard Mia Farrow saying that the key is China. They have been a big factor there and if they wanted to apply pressure, they could. We have to do what we can to encourage them to do that. According to her, their desire to have the Olympics go well might make China agreeable to dealing with Somalia. The brutality there is hard to get our minds around. The numbers. the cruelty. But if we went in with military, which we don't have to do it, would we fix it or make it worse? We can make sure the refugees get food though and are protected in their camps. Africa seems to be just one place after another that explodes but it doesn't seem right to turn our backs on those people if there are things we could do to help.
I think countries that have more resources and have take resources from the third world owe some help back, and that would be true even if only for humanitarian reasons. It's hard to do as we find often the aid we give is misused.
I think we need fair trade, not free trade and that has to be faced by those a lot wiser in economics than I am but people not trying to profit from what is done but rather just do what is best long term. Some of our trade arrangements have benefited our rich and hurt our poor. It's not good to make it profitable by taxes for corporations to go overseas and leave our people here without jobs.
Good leadership in our country is key to all of it and what I have been concentrating on. Who should lead next in this country? and who will do it so that they can improve our respect around the world and still stay strong? We need the capability to help others because 'others' are 'us' in the end. We need leaders who understand the world and are able to work with other countries. I don't think it's up to us to fix the problems of the world and our first concern has to be, as it is for all nations, doing what is right for our own people. We can't just go into other countries and demand they take our solutions but we can go there with an offer to help them solve their problems. I believe it's important we care about more than ourselves but whether it seems selfish or not, all nations do have to put their own people's safety and security first.
My main feeling is get good leadership. I said it above but it can't be said too many times. We are a representative government and we have to have good people in office or nothing good will happen.
And that's probably more than a thousand words...
I would like to hear if others have more thoughts on this or if you disagree on what you think should be done.
and keep our eye on the ball. Don't be distracted by meaningless advertising when we go to vote. Figure out what we want, all of us, and then vote for those who at least say they'll do it-- when they don't, vote them out and try someone else.
Excellent essay! But I think the biggest problem in accomplishing anything is your first paragraph. Trying to find unselfish statesmen not just powerhungry people looking to cash in is the biggest hurdle. And even when we get decent people interested in runing they get submarined because they smoked pot in college or they didnt pay Social Security for a nanny 10 years ago. It is crazy the silly things we let influence who gets to run the government in this country.
More later but it is time to make dinner.
Great posts!!!
Who cares if Obama's great-great relative had slaves? Jefferson had slaves and maybe some 'not-quite-white' off-spring.
Sounds like "Swift-Boating".
Very powerful slide show and you are right Rain...that last moment is the Kicker! There is an editorial in the Subday NY Times about the things Cobgress needs to do to correct the abuses of power of the current administration. It is so scary....!
Wonderful and informative post, Rain. The slide show said it all.
I've always felt the saying, "My country, right or wrong" is NOT my saying. All I have to do is recall what we did to the Indians. America has a history of this and my feeling is all of it, right up to today, does have to do with power and control. And with a bully in our White House these past years...all I can say is, "NO wonder we're so hated" around the world.
During a time when many people want to avoid this issue, I have to say that I commend rain for the courage to speak out against Bush's regime. Rain, I appreciate the fact that you also have the facts and that you know what you are talking about...and you articulate those thoughts so clearly.
As for me, I don't know all the facts, however; I know that the war is wrong. Moreover, what bothers me so much are the victims of this war.
In itself war is about blood, missiles, targets and strategy. A lot of people die. But the violence doesn't stop when the bullets stop flying. For the women and children, the violence goes on. Families, women and children really suffer from the consequences of the war. Right now, women are being raped, abused and tormented physically, psychologically and emotionally while the children have no option but to witness and learn. (what do the children learn from this, I am afraid to even imagine the lessons they learn.) The level of poverty and fear that the women live in , will bring some of them to take their own lives. And everyone will suffer for generations after the US troops have gone back home to their own families. And the saddest thing about this fact is that Bush would refer to them simply as casualties of war. My heat breaks when people talk about the war, but not because it was unmerited. It's about how all the other atrocities still go on unnoticed.
Engineer66,
Just where and when did Jews turn around and persecute? Are you sure? Or did the media misrepresent them?
I think it is important to consider our view of human nature and politics. It is dangerous to be of the opinion that helping the oppressed will only end in the formerly oppressed taking revenge.
Parapluie, dont take this the wrong way becuase am an very much in favor of Israel as a state. But have you ever heard of the Palistinians and the occupied territories. I went to our local college where it was considered safe for foreigners to come and study, well safe for rich calif kids too. I met people from all over the world. This is just one example of how palestinians were treated. A young boy 10 years old is looking out his apartment window at Israeli soldiers in the square. Afraid he runs and hides in a closet. The soldiers see him run and they go into his apartment and beat him and ask him why did he run. The next time he sees soldiers in the square from his window he doesnt run he doesnt want to get beat again so he stares at them. They come to his apartment and beat him because he is staring at them. Maybe you think that is proper behavior for soldiers in an occupied land, but I do not. Sounds more like German soldiers in WWII to me.
I am an optomist, I am for helping oppressed people and propping them up so they will not have to oppress others to survive.
Engineer,
You site a very sad story and I am sure it is not an isolated case. I also deeply regret the actions of the Israeli government towards the so called Palestinians the past couple of years. When I was in Israel in 1994, I visited the Rothchild School where Palestinians and Israeli children studied as equals. I saw Palestenians families shopping and enjoying the prosperity that the Jewish State created for them. I like my Jewish friends could not understand when the Palestenians were doing so well why some activists were convincing their people to rise up against Jews. And since then abuse on both sides has been the sad reality.
The state of Israel and all democracies are based on the cosmic view that all men are capable of being good. And people are not ever evil. True they can do bad but still they are capable of good. Everyone is capable of good deeds. Democracy is still in early stages of development and when the structure for the running of states is perfected, people will not take bad actions towards their neighbors.
I hope you are right. The extremists on both sides in that fight still kill their own people for marrying people from the other side. It seems that "normal" people can all get along for the most part, but a few hatemongers screw it up for everyone.
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